The Talent Bubble Podcast Season 1 | Episode 4

Interview with Jaclyn Jussif, Head of Talent @ Verily

This interview with Jaclyn Jussif can be heard on The Talent Bubble with Brian Mooney, the podcast for HR talent acquisition and people ops practitioners to learn the tactics, tools, and techniques their peers use every day. We'll hear how they navigated their careers, learn about exciting projects they're working on, and get advice about working in the field.

Jaclyn Jussif is the Head of Talent at Verily Life Sciences, a subsidiary of Alphabet. Verily’s mission is to make the world's health data useful so people can enjoy longer and healthier lives.

And since my conversation with Jaclyn, Verily has been heavily involved in the COVID-19 efforts. To learn more about how they're helping with screening and testing for COVID-19 visit www.verily.com. Without further ado, here's my conversation with Jaclyn Jussif.



Jaclyn Jussif: Hi, I'm Jacqueline Jussif. I'm the Head of Talent for Verily in Boston, and just wanted to say, before we start, that I'm speaking on my own experiences and not on behalf of Google or Verily.

Brian Mooney:  Can you tell me a little bit about your background and how you got into talent acquisition to start?

Jaclyn Jussif: I think that I might be one of the very few people in talent acquisition that got into talent acquisition on purpose. I was studying business administration and needed an internship, and I interned a long time ago at a little tiny recruiting firm for the jewelry industry.

So I started with big filing cabinets full of resumes and faxes and stuff like that, and then segwayed.

Brian Mooney:  Pretty niche there, specifically in jewelry. That's pretty interesting. 

Jaclyn Jussif:  Yeah, it was manufacturing, retail, and wholesale. 

Brian Mooney: And then where did you go from there?

Jaclyn Jussif: Yeah, so I got good at matching resumes and really liked that piece of it, sort of the puzzle of how does this skillset fit into what a company needs.

And I knew a lot about finance and business from my undergrad. So I went to be a finance recruiter, and went for an interview. And they of course hired me onto the technology team. So I got into this field I knew nothing about and started as a sourcer for them for a couple of months. which was actually also really fun.

It was a good way to learn about tech. It's so complex. so I was, I was there for a few months and then I moved into a full desk role for permanent hires in Boston and did that for five years. So I started in a great market, went into the terrible market of 2009 and all that, and then left in 2011 as things started to recover.

And then I went to MathWorks. MathWorks was a client of mine and went there first. I spent five years with them. It's an amazing company and made me a really good recruiter. That was definitely the foundation of everything I did later. 

Brian Mooney: And you were focused on technical recruiting there, as well? 

Jaclyn Jussif: Yes, I went into MatWorks focused on technical recruiting, and my old boss pushed me to learn about other areas. So by the time I left, I had recruited for everything under the sun, and I'm glad he did because I learned a whole bunch of things and got a whole bag of tricks. But yes, I thought when I was there that I would always be a deep technical recruiter. And since then I've recruited for all sorts of things.

So then I went to EdX. So I was at EdX for four years. I went there actually based on the tech recruiting skillset. That was what they really needed most. But it was a small organization at the time, probably about, I don't know, 120 when I started. And so I recruited for everything under the sun for them.

Slowly moved into a leadership role and built a team. And we took them from absolutely no recruiting processes at all. Not a great partnership with recruiting to having a full. Cycle recruiting department with a process in place and great partnerships with our staff, our recruiting staff, and left it and what I think is in really good shape. Hopefully they still agree! 

Brian Mooney: That's excellent! And I saw a while back, you did a post on these training projects that you do. I’m interested to hear kind of how those started. 

Was that something that you kind of took on and what was the structure of those trainings? 

Jaclyn Jussif: Yeah, so in parallel to MathWorks and EdX, I got my Master's in organizational leadership, which helps with training and developing staff and that kind of thing.

And so since then I started to look at the whole life cycle of recruiting and create deep dives that go for each step of that. So we have, I have a training on how to do a good intake, right. Working with your hiring manager to truly understand what they and their team needs. I have a training on really good interviews.

I think the one that you probably saw was working with new hiring managers. So folks, it has Yoda on it, so it's very memorable. But, we have a training on that since that's such a formative time for a manager as you're coaching them to learn how to hire. we did a training there and then I have a one on closing the candidate. Right. 

Brian Mooney: And those are just ones that you've developed with your own experience, your own research? 

Jaclyn Jussif:  Those are things that I've created and I delivered to teams that are reporting to me or that I'm working with. I've shared them in the industry as well with other people that are interested.

I think every company would need to adjust it to what their process is, but generally it's for each of the major steps of our recruiting process. 

Brian Mooney: Now, you're hiring a ton of positions here...can you explain a little bit about your team structure and how you work with the different departments that you’re hiring for?

Jaclyn Jussif: So there's a couple layers set. So in Boston we're doing a lot of recruiting around our engineering and product teams. Most of that is because the Boston office is that fast, one of the fastest growing. And I'm also. The products that we're working on are still early. So not everything is out yet. So verily, as you probably can, Google is a part of Alphabet.

And so we keep a lot of it confidential until it's out to market. But we need those engineers and products, the beginning planners and builders right now to help push forward a lot of the ideas we have. We have a really busy 2020, for sure.

Brian Mooney: What's that growth look like for you guys? 

Jaclyn Jussif: We actually are determining the final number, but we're about 130 now, and I will be over 200 before the end of the year. 

Brian Mooney: And what about your team? Are you the only person doing recruiting? What's your actual team look like?

Jaclyn Jussif: So there's myself, and I recruit probably about 25% of the time of my average day. I have two recruiters reporting to me and right now they are focused in the technical space. And then in the nontechnical space is McKayla and they're managing most of that. And. Almost all of it is here in Boston. We tend to own this location. Okay. And then we have Evan, who is our coordinator, who keeps us honest, lets us show up to things on time, helps us look good for the business and just generally coordinates our lives.

So that's how the team's structured. We do cross over a little bit. Recruiters should have variety, I think, in the wrecks that they handle. But also I think back to my own formative years, where my boss pushed me to learn about different areas and how helpful hat was later on. So I try to give an opportunity for a little bit of overlap. 

Brian Mooney: Do you find that your team spends more time sourcing or, or managing inbound? 

Jaclyn Jussif: So I think it depends on the role. I think as a recruiter you want to make a good decision on the wreck that you're handling and whether you need to do a ton of sourcing or not.

Some of our roles are going to get high quality talent to apply and they're just like a, maybe a more common skill set or one that more people are looking for. and then there's others where you are going to have to go and dig. where it's either a really rare skill set or it's super senior. So not a lot of people actually fit into that role.

You want to make that decision early on in the process. but I think like most companies, we do get a decent amount of inbound but we're not like Google, like major Google. That's a little different level. but for us, we yeah, I'd say we kind of, we make a decision up front about that. 

Brian Mooney: What’s a project that you’re excited about working on right now?

Jaclyn Jussif: Well, this is actually part of it: this actual meeting. We don't have a strong employer brand right now for Verily in Boston, and it's such a great story to tell. So I'm really excited to be like the face of that for recruiting. so we're working with different vendors right now to get quotes and packages together and things like that to just bring us out on the scene.

I think people are interested in meaningful work. People that are interested in meaningful work, I suppose, would like Verily. We're working really closely with patients and clinicians to understand their needs and to give them tools for better value-based care.

So if that's ever been in your personal life or you've ever seen an area for improvement in health care, Verily has the resources to actually make a difference. 

Brian Mooney: You said you kind of need to come on the scene here with employer branding - what were some of the companies that you wanted to reach out to, and what could their packages could look like?

Jaclyn Jussif:  So the way that I thought about the strategy was really three-tiered, I'll say. 

So obviously we want to have a digital presence, right? So we want to look to some of the industry standard - Built In Glassdoor, Venture, Fez. We're mostly starting in Boston right now. So we look there to just represent ourselves that way. 

The other part is partnering with branded marketing on our career site. There's a whole piece that really needs to be updated and improved. And so we're working on that with them.

Then last is just being in person. We want to have a personal connection with the folks that we're trying to recruit, and we have amazing talent that works here. right. Director of engineering was one of the original people to launch Chrome and some other really exciting projects inside of Google.

So it's like we have the talent we want to get, we want to mobilize them to go and find other like minds that are interested in our space. And so that looks like, in person network networking events, it looks like speaking engagements. It looks like coffee, a couple times a month with people that might be interested someday, like building a pipeline in that way.

So those are the three pieces. But it's easy to start with the online stuff. So we went there first. And then I think, the career site is a little bit more of a push because there's development and things. We went there a second. And then face-to-face, like relationship building just happens over time and it's a muscle. You have to keep doing it and so that is going to be slower, but it's going to be a big piece of it.  

Brian Mooney: How do you activate those people internally to go speak on panel or do the coffees and stuff like that? 

Jaclyn Jussif: Well, usually if they have to hire someone, they're pretty motivated. Find the ones that need the most help on their team.

No, I think I think it's out. I'm trying to connect with them on a level that works. So I'll just use our director of engineering. She's not the type that can go out after work and do some of those circuits. Like the after work events or if she geeks out, as wonderful as those are, it doesn't work with her with her schedule.

So we try to find her events that happen during work hours, that complimentary skill set. So she happens to care a lot about empowering women in tech. so we'll try to introduce her to events that happen during the day that are available, that can do that, right. And connect with those people.

Some of it is like if you've been a recruiter in Boston for a long time, a lot of people, so get your candidates that you've met in the past or your connections that hopefully, you still are, are in in touch with and connect them to folks here. especially if they tend to be in like the same level or if they're the same industry or things along those lines.

So we've been doing a lot of, like, I knew this person from 10 years ago, come on in and have coffee, that kind of thing. But those are, those are usually helpful. I think the other one is, reassuring staff of two things: One, that you need help with the employer brand - like give them insight that we do need help there and usually that you're going to leverage some sort of data.

We looked at our clicks and our applications through our career site for Boston versus San Francisco, and there's some size differences there, but still it's significant how much more goes to San Francisco than hits in Boston. so we use that. but then the other one is just like, we haven't, well not a lot of folks have heard of us.

We're not showing up at the events we need to. I think if you can leverage that, then people tend to get motivated. 

Brian Mooney: On the content side, you mentioned you're going to partner with brand and marketing. What does that look like? What’s some of the key content that you want to create?

Jaclyn Jussif: Yeah, I think I'll, I'll quote our head of brand here. And some of this is still forthcoming. We're in early stages, but the idea is that whatever content we create should actually reflect what it's like to work here. And so it needs to be driven and infused by our staff today. So understanding like how they see our culture, how they collaborate every day.

And what's some of their favorite things are. and then, and then bringing that forward through whatever content we create. So it could be videos, it could be our head of brand created a big building wrap to show some of our patients and some of the effects we've had on patients. And that's been really a great idea.

But whatever they're saying, you want to present that, right? because it should be genuine but also true. You want to actually reflect what it's like to be here, and no one knows that better than our staff. So we pull that in and represent that, 

Brian Mooney: And they're taking the lead on that? They're going out and talking to the staff and kind of pulling out those nuggets?

Jaclyn Jussif: It's a joint effort, I think as fairly as five years old. So we've been around for some time, but, We grew really quickly. And so when you're doing that, there's not, Oh, you don't always have the relationship between marketing, brand, and recruiting that you want to just cause you're trying to go. 

So now we're working on that relationship, so we're more in sync. But yes, “brand” certainly understands that we need to get out there - and what we look like and things like employee engagement, surveys, feedback from staff - also are things we can leverage to help drive brand.

Brian Mooney: I want to take you back a few years. I noticed on your LinkedIn profile you had an inclusive talent acquisition certification from EdX. Can you tell me a bit about that certification?

Jaclyn Jussif: So it lives on the EdX platform, but it's from Perkin’s School of the Blind. And we took that specific certificate for correct interview processes for someone that's blind or low sided. Okay. So that's what that one is for.

There are actually other certificates that you can take on different platforms for other folks that might have a disability or some accommodation that they want in your interview. And so being able to provide that to them and help them feel comfortable and most importantly, help them get their skills across for the role is something I'd recommend.

Brian Mooney: What do you think makes a great recruiter?

Jaclyn Jussif: The field of recruiting in general is something I'm very passionate about. And I think that recruiters are partners to the business. I think we're definitely in the service business. We're helping people to get an essential function done at their job.

But at the end of the day, we really are partners and they have an opportunity to learn a lot from us. And so it's important to me that recruiters have, I think, a good foundation in five areas to be able to be a good partner. so one of those is sourcing and recruiting, actually finding talent. Show him the goods kind of thing.

You want to be able to do that. the other one is interviewing. You want to be an actual good interviewer. I think if you can train your staff to be a good interviewer, that's one thing. But recruiters have a unique relationship with candidates. So leveraging that, having a really good interview and being able to assess the talent coming in is a huge add to your hiring manager and to your groups that you're supporting.

so interviewing is really important. closing is really important. I know that word sometimes has a bad rap with it, but the ability to understand what a candidate wants to do and to set expectations with them around onboarding and offers and making sure that that offer is sustainable and it's something that's going to keep them with the company and satisfied for a long time.

It's a skill and it's when you should get really good at. The other one is processed facilitation. That's where we, where the service piece comes in most. Like we want to be really, really good at getting people in a room and moving candidates through quickly and having a good experience. process facilitation is probably me just not having cool words.

It's really candidate experience, but it's important. And then last is business partnership. taking all of those things being really, really good at them. And enabling your business through them, but also coaching and guiding your managers along the way is, is really key. So, 

Brian Mooney: That's great. I want to touch on the “closing,” for lack of a better term. Is there anything that you do upfront in the process to alleviate any problems that you'd have on the back end of the process with losing candidates? 

Jaclyn Jussif: During the offer phase? Sure. 

I mean, it's going to happen. I think I've been recruiting now for 15 years and it will happen to me. It's part of it. Things do come up and people are always gonna do what's best for them and they should. They need to make tough decisions. Sometimes it's not always going to go your way, and that's okay. The key is that you want to get to that news early, as early as you can.

So for things that you can do early in the process to help have a smooth. process through recruiting is you want to give as much information up front as you can make sure that they're well-informed. The other thing to remember that is that right. Closing is a process and not an event.

So doing it up front is great. Like you can have conversations about compensation expectations. You can talk through benefits, you can give them all the low down on the position that you want, but if you don't continue to have that conversation, their search is going to change, especially if they're active.

So you want to keep doing it as you're talking to them, but in a way that you're partnering with them and that you're guiding them through. And also that you're preparing them that whether they say yes to your offer or no to your offer, both are okay. Let's just get there, right? And be open about what's going on so that we don't disappoint or, or worse, we don't have our business fall behind.

That's the tough thing with offers and having to try to get to a yes or a no on them is that it really can set your business back. And so not knowing that and not, not prepping the candidate and the team can be bad. It can help. It can, you can miss goals and all of those. 

Brian Mooney: Yeah, that's great. A while back, I saw something that I thought was interesting. It was the article you wrote on returning to work after having a child. Tell me a little bit about the document you posted to your team about returning to work after having a child and how that was received.

Jaclyn Jussif: It's actually public to the world, so anybody can see it. 

I have a six month old son. His name is Benton. He's wonderful. but going through that whole experience of being pregnant and then having the baby and then having to return to work was like formative for me in a lot of ways. So I think as a leader going out is an experience of relinquishing a little bit of control and letting things happen for you, especially in something you're really passionate about, that can be a little bit painful.

So doing that, but then also asserting yourself when you return to get back into a position where you're, you feel like a leader, those are, that's a difficult time for people to go through. So not everybody's going to know what that's like. Right? It's and not everybody experiences it the same way.

So my thought was as I was out on maternity leave, and also thinking about my job change here is that if I did say that at. What I wanted to do was give everybody a tool to help me to be successful, right? And for them not to have to wonder what they needed to do to help me ramp back up. One amazing thing about EdX is the people there are so helpful and so kind and welcoming and all that, but they all really wanted to help.

So I just gave them a, I gave them a path to be. Do that and how I wanted to be treated, and that sounded like, hi, I'm back now. Some things may change. Glad you made decisions while I was out. But reasserting yourself is difficult. I think whether you're out for some other reason for a baby or whatever, but it's an interesting thing to navigate.

Brian Mooney: I'm curious, what was the method in which you delivered that? 

Jaclyn Jussif: Yeah, so I think I felt really comfortable in that environment. So for me personally, I sent an email saying, I'm back from maternity leave and here's how I want you to work with me, to all my key stakeholders. So the CEO of the company, someone I worked with closely, and all of my hiring managers, my own team, which I actually spoke to them personally about it, but I made sure they all had access. 

And I also, I don't know if it's in the doc, but I started that conversation off with a sincere, heartfelt thank you that they did that work. Like having someone cover for you while you're out for almost four months in that instance is a huge ask, and it's, they expect it short cause you, you generally have time before you go out, but, but it's big, and they step up in a lot of ways and you want to reward the fact that people did step up, but then you, you come back and you need to kind of.

Readjust to that. And some of it is like if a person stepped up, you give them that space to continue doing it. And that's part of building a great team behind you. But then you have to use your judgment on what do I take back and where do I belong now? And if X has changed, and what does that mean for me?

What's, why do I do differently? And so that document helped me quite a bit to be able to do that. Again, I was lucky it was a really welcoming environment. I had a fabulous team that reported to me, but in my case that I moved on a little bit after that. Anyway. 

Brian Mooney: As the newest member here, how have you gone about building the relationships that you need to make the process work?

Jaclyn Jussif: Well, I think it depends on the relationship that you're building. So I would say that with my own team, My approach, and I'd be interested to hear what other leaders think about this, but my approach was assume that the people that you interview with and that you, you met in your interview are as strong as, as you perceive them to be in that moment and give them room to do what they need to do.

They've been operating without you there before. They know the environment really well. So trust them to do well and make yourself available when they need you. but let them continue to run at least initially. part of that is like observation and, and that kind of thing. But a little bit of it is just establishing trust through, through again, allowing them to continue to perform.

So that was, that was an interesting thing cause I never inherited a team before. I had only built my own, which is a huge luxury as a manager. So it's time I got to the real world and actually had to inherit a team. But anyway, I did that. And so I have received good feedback from them, so I'm going to tell myself it went well, although it's still happening.

And so, yeah, so that was interesting. I think the other thing is to try to help. So if there's, you're in that role because you do bring expertise in different, like opinions and approaches to recruiting. And so leverage that and, and make sure your team knows about it. And then give yourself a period of just not changing anything.

Again, you were hired for your expertise and your background, but at the same time, Verily grew quite a bit without me here so they're doing something right. They have a really good process in place, especially for growing as quickly as they did. There's a lot of stuff that they've created and that they do that's best practice.

So that's been really good. If you are going to introduce change, then probably don't start with something that's sacred. Start with something that's a quick win or an easy fix. And in my case, it was the green house cleanup I was mentioning to you.

But so that's that's kinda how I, how I did it. And then with my counterparts in San Francisco, I think it's just trying to get face to face time when you can. And one thing I did that, similar to the maternity articles, I actually wrote an intro about myself. So everybody that I met would just understand like how I work and what my approach is both like.

How I sometimes don't communicate very well at nuance, like right over my head at some point. the other one is I tend to be pretty direct, so I wanted people to know that I told them all how to pronounce my last name. So just like little things about how I like to work and getting to know them and stuff.

So I guess what my point with that was like, how can I help them get to know me quickly and how I like to work. And I obviously did download with them on the same thing. So then we just like hit the ground faster and recruiting moves so quick anyway that you want to get that stuff done. You want to meet each other and know what you like and don't like and just go, 

Brian Mooney: I love it. I'm curious to know - I know you mentioned the greenhouse cleanup, but what was the first project for you here at Verily?

Jaclyn Jussif: Again, they had a really good process in place and I think there has been a good focus on recruiting data, but moving that quickly, expanding this quickly. I'm trying to leverage greenhouse in the way that they needed to in parallel, didn't always run smoothly.

So the very first thing I felt we needed to do, and this was something that they knew, but I also observed as we need to have good systems and we need to have good data, otherwise we can't inform our business. And also where we have some workforce planning things that we want to do. We needed that to really see deeply into an org.

So we started really early on cleaning up old wrecks and I'm looking at time to hire, looking at our source of hire all of those numbers in the recruiting pipeline, and then making sure that they're accurate. Greenhouse is a great product. We've used it, I've used it at EdX, I use it here now.

And it has the basics for what you need for reporting, for sure. now that we actually are entering the data correctly, it's working even better. but then we're going to take that and attach it to some other systems to be able to report even more effectively and even more deeply. So that, that's exciting.

Brian Mooney: Is that something internally you do with some of the other teams that will pull that data? 

Jaclyn Jussif: We have a people analytics person that can help us there. And then our team is pretty tech savvy as well. At MathWorks, back in the day, we actually hired a consultant to come in and then had a person - who was basically people analytics who really early on in that whole field - who ran things through business objects and other tools. 

Brian Mooney: What is the biggest challenge you guys are facing right now as a team?

Jaclyn Jussif: Interesting question. So one I think is we need to build a pipeline and get a couple of roles. Just. Sorted out. So I think the immediate need is a few key roles that we need to circle around, which we have caught up.

And so I think we're past the reactive phase and now we're at a point where we can take a deep breath and be proactive on how we recruit for it. some of that is employer branding strategy. Some of that is better partnerships with our managers. some of that is slight process changes, but that's like the immediate.

Low hanging fruit, let's get this done. Establish ourselves and continue running. So that's really important. good. Clean recruiting data is on its way, so we look pretty good. I think by the end of Q2 we should deliver there. 

Brian Mooney: What advice do you have for someone that’s trying to get into HR/Talent Acquisition?

Jaclyn Jussif: So, for talent acquisition, I would say the five things that I mentioned earlier: Being conscious of what those are and focusing your career in a way that you can get cycles through those. So whether it's like a recruiting coordinator position or sourcing or just partnering with a recruiter to understand what those steps look like is really important, good, solid process and running cycles through that is really key.

The other one I would say is that even if your title is recruiter TA or what have you, see yourself as an HR person you're there to benefit the company and to be a partner to your hiring managers. And so do that. But also look at your, your HR counterpart. If you have one, you're depending on your company size and know that you're a resource.

And, again, like someone that managers can come to for help and coaching and guidance, that would be key. I guess the other thing I would tell you, just like my Sage advice is as a recruiter, be ready for highs and lows. If you've never done it before, it can be jarring at first. But you can go for months and months with everything running smoothly and then all of a sudden somebody surprises you or your wreck gets put on hold.

Or things changing your company, what have you, but it is, it is a job that has highs and lows. Similar, maybe to like a sales role except a little, little, slightly different. Your product is human, so it's a little bit different in that respect. But 

Brian Mooney: Yeah, it's great to have a plan, but, yeah, you gotta be able to react if things change. So you mentioned something really amazing happened to you recently. Can you just share that story with us?

Jaclyn Jussif: So, let's see. I think about a week ago I was walking with my team to the elevator at the end of the day, not really paying attention. And. I can get up to the elevator and someone walks up to me with their hand out.

They're like, Jacqueline, it's, it's me. Like we met a couple of years ago back at IDEXX and they say hello and all these things, and I'm terrible with names sometimes. And if you get me on by surprise, it doesn't. So it took me a minute and I'm like, Oh, yes, it shake hands. And then I remember the name pops into my head and I'm like, I saw on LinkedIn that you were here.

So I've been trying to stop by your desk. But I'm at Google and your Google adjacent, we're in the same building now. And how are you and. Et cetera, et cetera. And I said, we'll go get coffee, let's talk, send me an email, etc. So we do. He sends me an email and then after he sent a note that said, I'm not surprised that you ended at Google.

My interaction with you at X was like extremely positive and you're focused on helping women in Boston and tech to connect and have positive careers stuck with me. And. It's something that I've thought about now for my own kids and how they are raised in how they are raised in this community and the way that they see themselves in tech, if that's the path that they choose to go.

And where we haven't had coffee yet, we'll go next week. But he then referred  me to a few other women, and product management. And it dawned on me that like, that one interaction that I had, which I did remember after, but that one interaction actually spawn so much good. Like it was, first of all, it was my first couple of weeks here where I'm trying to prove myself.

So to get positive feedback like that from a coworker was like super appreciated and just felt good in general. It was like, Oh, actually I am good at this. Let me just phase down that imposter syndrome a little bit. so that was nice. But also it's like he's spread that out now to so many other people. I think as it just sticks with me too, as a recruiter, you have so much opportunity to put good into the community and touch people's lives in such positive ways.

Careers and lives are really intertwined, especially these days. So, I guess the lesson I took away from it was like these small, like little interactions that we call candidate experience, recall an interview. They actually can help people to continue on in their careers and do positive and be really good.

And so. I don't know what to call out to all the TA people out there, like do that. Take care of the people in that interview seat and be good to them and they'll do more and it'll come back to you eventually. So 

Brian Mooney: Yeah, that's awesome. And on the candidate side too, if you have a good interaction, don't be afraid to tell your recruiter that too. Because I think sometimes. There's that wall up there. And you're just finding out that this, you made such an impact on this person now, years and years later. Right?  So, yeah, definitely. I think it goes both ways to be human.

Jaclyn Jussif: Be nice to your recruiter. They try hard, I promise.

Brian Mooney: Well, thank you so much for taking the time here and, appreciate, all the knowledge that you shared today! 

Jaclyn Jussif: Thank you, again. 

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